tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post3976193404684591826..comments2023-10-25T09:49:43.089+01:00Comments on BEN'S PRISON BLOG - Lifer On The Loose: A Powerful Questionprisonerbenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14923205052778958118noreply@blogger.comBlogger93125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-14867055683845930902013-06-04T01:14:53.175+01:002013-06-04T01:14:53.175+01:00NO fecking spam! Grrrrr.NO fecking spam! Grrrrr.prisonerbenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14923205052778958118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-81537426717347583682013-06-04T01:13:53.848+01:002013-06-04T01:13:53.848+01:00Um, have you read the comments littered with snide...Um, have you read the comments littered with snide personal jibes? No? Or you just don't see them? I respond to people as they talk to me - personal digs are responded to with contempt. If I offend you - tough. The drive to avoid leaving anyone feeling offended is the kiss of death to debate and progress.<br /><br />My "pet scheme" has a proven track record, which just a few moments Googling would have shown you. You've chosen not to inform yourself, yet feel free to pile into the debate. Interesting.<br /><br />Your last sentence leaves me feeling rather sad, frustrated, and to be frank disinclined to disentangle your comment to form a longer response. You may not like the Circles idea, but to know nothing about it and then question my integrity and call me dangerous is a personal comment that leaves me.....disengaged.<br /><br />And if you really, really want to protect children - take them away from their homes, where the friends and family who will most often kill them live. Because for every Huntley, there is a hundred nasty uncles, mothers and daddies who kill their kids.prisonerbenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14923205052778958118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-80105281855596058442013-06-04T00:58:57.631+01:002013-06-04T00:58:57.631+01:00Yes, high risk sexual predators can - and have bee...Yes, high risk sexual predators can - and have been - safely managed in the community. The word "community" implies an aggregate of those individuals who comprise that community - men, women , children. The families of the victims you mentioned won't want those men in the community under any circumstances, but I say that they - and other victims - should not allow personal views to warp the criminal justice system.<br /><br />Everybody's rights are paramount.prisonerbenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14923205052778958118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-45553991495232511052013-05-26T00:29:56.339+01:002013-05-26T00:29:56.339+01:00Ben: Pot. Kettle. Black. From an outsider's pe...Ben: Pot. Kettle. Black. From an outsider's perspective, and one who wish you every success, I have to tell you it's you who keep throwing your toys out the pram. None of the above commenters are trolls, but you know that already. And they have tried very hard to engage you in a serious debate, while you've been evasive, insulting and repetitive. It isn't wholly your fault that you are out of your depth, but you are. And you don't even seem able to comprehend how bizarre and offensive your responses are.<br /><br />Your pet scheme for managing high risk offenders is insanely risky; What's to stop a paedophile pretend he wants to join a 'circle',just so they can get out and hunt up more victims? What's to stop him finding a likeminded chum in the community so they can join forces and hunt in their own little pack? Is it worth sacrificing even one child to achieve a better life for criminals? If you do think that, you truly have no clue whatsoever. Your integrity is dead in the water, and you are a very dangerous man.Sirikithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13188194741226037319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-15797590387614311412013-05-26T00:11:15.335+01:002013-05-26T00:11:15.335+01:00Circles 'reduce' the risk of repeat offend...Circles 'reduce' the risk of repeat offending, but that's not good enough. Do you really believe Ian Huntley could be safely managed in 'the community' (newsflash: there is no such thing as a communiy - there are men, and women, and children, and families. Ask the Chapman and Wells families how they'd feel of Mr H were to be released into some Mickey Mouse arrangement. Children's rights are paramount, and far outweigh the rights of those who rape, kill and desecrate them. Sirikithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13188194741226037319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-86817006469409649272013-02-03T09:27:07.883+00:002013-02-03T09:27:07.883+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12229156333108018470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-40828125878516684482013-01-30T22:01:14.251+00:002013-01-30T22:01:14.251+00:00It's a good film, Lisa any I went to see it ea...It's a good film, Lisa any I went to see it earlier (Orange Wednesdays). <br /><br />I think it's karma that we both watched Lincoln IN Lincoln tonight :-)Fenrir Lukoinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-55096854356417473352013-01-30T19:53:16.632+00:002013-01-30T19:53:16.632+00:00Ah, well Ben I'm a junkie for politics so I su...Ah, well Ben I'm a junkie for politics so I suppose I'll go see it.<br /><br />I can't dispute your other comments. It seems to me that none of the apologists for the prison system are able to tell us what prison solves.Tom Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03941520164254766362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-75011430290131313512013-01-30T19:09:54.175+00:002013-01-30T19:09:54.175+00:00All the above is confusing!! At last an Anonymo...All the above is confusing!! At last an Anonymous has given a name - any name will do - helps the likes of me keep track of the comments. I have always tended to ignore the Anonymous comments being unable to understand why someone could not make up a name just to accept responsibility for their own comments and to clarify for the rest of us how many people are commenting.<br /><br />Really dislike the comments that are personal and rude to both Ben and others - surely we each can be civil, polite and knowledgeable about what one wants to comment about. In my view Ben's comments are his and we are invited to respond to them if we want - this can be done courteously and with respect without resorting to some of the sarcasm etc as above.<br /><br />Incidentally to this particular blog - remember the Indeterminate sentence - well I know personally of several people who received a less than 18 months tariff and are still in prison 6 years beyond the 18 months. These people must be able to be managed safely in the community - but am not hearing an outcry from anyone about the injustice of that. Of course, some prisoners could be managed by a properly run probation/community service without putting the public at serious risk. Open your hearts to this and look seriously at other ways of managing people that does no further harm. Circles are a wonderful group and their aims and philosophies could be used more extensively.Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-14087601037491963212013-01-30T13:29:19.181+00:002013-01-30T13:29:19.181+00:00I am here; just have little of use to add. Reading...I am here; just have little of use to add. Reading, though. To be honest, it's just set me off on a train of thought along the lines of the coming and so-called biological hurricane. I think the future debate (albeit some time off yet) will be on what actually constitutes criminal responsibility in a society (difficult to imagine) whose self-knowledge is based on a fundamentally different understanding of the extent of free will. So I'd only go off-topic anyway. Sorry, Anonymous!Jillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01708444000412716821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-10171875101677026352013-01-30T12:51:04.782+00:002013-01-30T12:51:04.782+00:00@Anon 10.36pm, we came so close to a discussion th...@Anon 10.36pm, we came so close to a discussion that avoided petty jibes. And then you just couldn't contain yourself. Read and learn....prisonerbenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14923205052778958118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-34899045464121288402013-01-30T12:39:19.439+00:002013-01-30T12:39:19.439+00:00So, whilst I was away at the pictures, it seems to...So, whilst I was away at the pictures, it seems to have been settled that there are potential alternatives to imprisonment, but that they are probably unacceptable socially and politically.<br /><br />Which shifts the debate somewhat, doesn't it? From why we use prison, to why don't we consider the alternatives? It isn't that "criminal justice" is hard-wired into our psychology, because - as has been pointed out - AngloSaxon justice was more restorative than anything else. The present obsession with retribution (pointless or not) is a historical blip in the progress of human society.<br /><br />For me, then, the issue becomes one of not only highlighting the sheer wastefulness and stupidity of prison but also arguing for the alternatives.<br /><br />That's the rest of my life sorted then.....<br /><br />And Lincoln....if you like politics, its great. If you don't, you will wither and die in your seat.prisonerbenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14923205052778958118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-51291103080669986882013-01-30T07:51:04.036+00:002013-01-30T07:51:04.036+00:00Anonymous 10:36 PM
I never claimed to be an intel...Anonymous 10:36 PM<br /><br />I never claimed to be an intellect....just an ex-inmate!Darbynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-2624333395235476932013-01-30T01:43:50.463+00:002013-01-30T01:43:50.463+00:00IV,
Your reply at 9.34 p.m. seems a slightly conf...IV,<br /><br />Your reply at 9.34 p.m. seems a slightly confused to me, almost as if you're debating the question with yourself. I asked you what does prison solve. You reply by saying that it stops criminals causing harm to others, yet in the same breath you acknowledge that in fact this is not necessarily the case because prisoners may inflict harm while in custody - and of course, we all know that many do. <br /><br />Of course, I will not be silly about this and try and suggest that prison does not provide some relief against violence and bad behaviour in society by locking certain people up. Clearly it does and it would be silly of me to deny this, but equally it would be wrong to pretend that prison can offer a long-term solution to this given that the violence or bad behaviour continues in prison and then (in about 70% of cases currently) outside prison when the ex-criminal goes back into society. Not much of a solution, is it?<br /><br />Finally, you also talk of prison as a 'controlled environment'. I see no reason why most criminals could not be managed in controlled environments in the community. Do you? Why do we still need prisons - a Victorian institution - to do this? The workplace is a controlled environment. A family is a controlled environment. A social club is a controlled environment. Perhaps the best way to 'rehabilitate' and reform a criminal is to help him find love, respect and discipline in the community he already knows with the help of friends and family, and perhaps volunteers, who are willing to give him remonstration and support. Why should the state do it, at taxpayers' expense, and in a cruel setting that will leave the individual psychologically-damaged, humiliated and resentful?Tom Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03941520164254766362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-80938698250569989742013-01-30T01:28:40.079+00:002013-01-30T01:28:40.079+00:00Geoff,
I like that little touch at the end of &qu...Geoff,<br /><br />I like that little touch at the end of "Don't blame me, it's society". Droll. <br /><br />I accept the internal logic of your observations: the criminal justice system acts as a displaced form of retribution, ensuring that the community-at-large does not seek revenge of its own (a baser form of retribution) against criminals. OK, fine, but I think this overstates the case for punishment. It's really an attempt to rationalise doing something that would otherwise serve no constructive purpose. Sort of like flogging a dead horse. "Hey Percy, why are you flogging the apple scrumper?" "So that the villagers don't flog him." It's a queer idea, but through centuries of practice (most of it enforced), it has gained currency and its own internal logic, even the imprimatur of academic respectability.<br /><br />Do people really want punishment as much as you think they do? I suspect the old trope that most people have reactionary views is not really very accurate, but in any case, I think we need to start by acknowledging that those very few cases that excite the strongest emotions, such as the Ian Bradys or the Fred Wests, are unhelpful to this discussion. At a deep (probably primeaval) level, nearly-all of us struggle with our emotions over such cases, and nearly-all of us accept that, even in a non-carceral society, such people would have to be subject to significant restraints on their liberty, in fact most probably some form of close detention that resembles today's prisons. <br /><br />It's also probably not very useful in this discussion to occupy ourselves with non-violent criminals and suspects on remand for such offences. Even the die-hards who believe that non-violent criminals should be locked-up would probably acknowledge in an honest debate that there is considerable slippage in the concept of incarceration as it applies to people who are not a physical threat in society. It becomes harder to justify imprisoning, say, people who have committed frauds, especially if imprisonment prevents them from restituting their victims. <br /><br />The real issue here, I think, is how society responds to people who are a physical threat to others or who have caused physical harm to others: typically, murderers and those who commit other homicides, rapists, paedophiles, terrorists, armed robbers, burglars, people who commit serious assaults, and those suspected of such offences.<br /><br />When looking at such criminals, the assumption is that prison should be the default punishment, and barring strong or exceptional mitigation, an immediate sentence of imprisonment is the only sensible option. My question is: what is such a sentence meant to solve? Note: I am not asking why such a sentence might be imposed, a subtly different question, and a question we can all speculate on forever without moving forward. What I am asking is what does prison solve?<br /><br />My suspicion is that this question is unanswerable in any coherent sense because prison actually solves nothing. The truth is almost given away by Geoff. In his post, he comes very close to telling us this by explaining that an important reason for incarceration is the quid pro quo of principled retribution. That we still have these vile establishments is not because they serve any constructive purpose, but because people want prisoners to be punished. Tom Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03941520164254766362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-87491328032613033102013-01-30T01:02:19.705+00:002013-01-30T01:02:19.705+00:00Welcome back, Ben - you wouldn't mind posting-...Welcome back, Ben - you wouldn't mind posting-up a review of the film at some point, would you? I'd like to know whether I should bother to go and see it.Tom Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03941520164254766362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-59058612059260556462013-01-30T00:26:31.249+00:002013-01-30T00:26:31.249+00:00Anon, 10.36: Where's Ben?
Ben left you to tal...Anon, 10.36: Where's Ben? <br />Ben left you to talk amongst yourselves whilst we went to the pictures to see Lincoln! <br />Ed.prisonerbenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14923205052778958118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-22558726971289570902013-01-29T23:54:35.328+00:002013-01-29T23:54:35.328+00:00Your point about prisoners held on remand is disin...Your point about prisoners held on remand is disingenuous to say the least...<br />Most remand prisoners are remanded because they have previously offended whilst on bail, or on license from previous sentences, or previously breached non custodial sentences, attempted to interfere with witnesses victims and attempted to subvert forthcoming trials . A significant number are remanded because they pose a real risk of flight etc etc Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-72797636789073368262013-01-29T23:18:42.305+00:002013-01-29T23:18:42.305+00:00Sorry to disappoint - Fenrir has been abroad, work...Sorry to disappoint - Fenrir has been abroad, working.<br /><br />I have one issue with the Prison Punishment brigade - the number of people that do not understand that it is prison, the lack of liberty, that is the only punishment. The idea that prisoners should have to work for nothing, or next to nothing, should have to pay for their bed and board, should be denied access to facilities, the vote, the media, etc is clearly all to do with punishment, and all wrong.<br /><br />Moreover, the elephant in the prison, so to speak, is not the lifers, the IPP's, the long termers,. the high risk and the dangerous. No, the elephant in the room is the 20,000 people held in prison on remand, of whom half, statistically, are going to either be found not guilty or be given an effectively non-custodial sentence. <br /><br />Regardless of how many prison spaces are needed for the mad, bad and dangerous to know, the system wastes over 9000 spaces a day, on average, by jailing innocent men, and subjecting them to the same punishment as the guilty.<br /><br />So, when considering the "detriment to the perp" consider that Prison has never been used just for that - it's a place to warehouse the inconvenient truth, that some people are not satisfied to be subdued by society's rules, and some people are not considered welcome in society because of what it is claimed they did, even when it is proven they didn't.<br /><br />And as to the time Ben did over tariff - I am firmly of the view that he was fitted up for Murder from the start, and that Manslaughter was the appropriate charge. After all, Venables only did 8 years before parole for a sadistic, pre-planned killing. Fenrir Lukoinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-82381577227393203242013-01-29T23:03:27.004+00:002013-01-29T23:03:27.004+00:00To my mind the issue is not whether Prince Harry c...To my mind the issue is not whether Prince Harry committed murder – it would hardly be of the first degree if you consider the mind behind the act – but that the media seem to regard his killing as a rite of passage or a feather in his cap. I find this primitive attitude quite disgusting in the context of the precious debate about crime and just retribution.YagiBirdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06779431797609509966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-64687261447235066492013-01-29T22:36:20.368+00:002013-01-29T22:36:20.368+00:00Where's Ben gone? Where's Darby? Where'...Where's Ben gone? Where's Darby? Where's Jill, or Sophie or Fenrir???<br />Think they've all bottled it and ran away cos TT and IV and Geoff have the floor and are displaying more intellect than they've all got between them !!!<br />Pmsl Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-38128777006486558352013-01-29T21:58:08.087+00:002013-01-29T21:58:08.087+00:00This is all very well, TT, but what about the elep...This is all very well, TT, but what about the elephant in the room (punishment)? People being people, and only human, do require to see some sort of proportionate quid pro quo at the end of whatever balancing exercise society indulges in when imposing ‘justice’ on the individual transgressor. I think that we all sign up to a sort of implicit contract with society at birth…for mutual protection. To that extent society is a prison. But a benign one. Some people decide that life for them is better by not adhering to their side of the contract. Some of them cause very very serious harm. Some don’t. Those that do, must be seen to be punished. Harm needs to befall them. This wouldn’t be satisfied by the heroin dealer, robber, rapist, killer, et al being seen to be out and about almost as usual! A minimalist approach to criminalisation itself is obviously good. But a too-minimalist approach to punishment would encounter difficulty when folks in general began to see perps not being suitably banged up.<br /><br />yes Foucault is a good read re just how and why punishment has evolved. But I noticed that some degree of corporeality has ALWAYS been required by one’s fellow citizens when it comes to punishment. From grossly overt violations of the body (amputation….branding …whipping etc etc), to the less obvious today (where we can recognise a holistic approach to the understanding of this sort of thing). For today’s imprisonment is very much an assault on the mind-body duality, just as has always been required by society for the purposes of punishment. That has not changed. And to not imprison for the serious offences won’t cut it, I’m afraid. At least not for the vast majority of society. People nowadays, just as did their ancestors, need to see a physical punishment. That, these days, is imprisonment (and imprisonment will never go away…unless and until there is a regression to the physical punishments of the obviously gross kind).<br /><br />So, to my mind, there has to be a detriment for the serious perp, and that detriment has to be physical ---because that imperative for the physical hasn’t changed. History says so, rather than the opposite. Despite Foucault. Imprisonment satisfies this. Treatment in the community doesn’t.<br /><br />How else to explain the apparent race to the bottom in Stateside practice. The bottom is 'everyone', and they're just more open about it over there. Maybe.<br /><br />Don’t blame me, it’s society lol.<br />geoffAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-80800552946796837512013-01-29T21:45:23.322+00:002013-01-29T21:45:23.322+00:00As for the second part of your post, this is where...As for the second part of your post, this is where we get into subjective territory. Of course some people do think that murderers rapists and apple thieves should be locked away for ever!! Ok, most of them read the Daily Mail and also have probably never had any contact with an apple thief let alone any other offender, but their opinions are as relevant as yours mine or Bens and they hold the right to have an opinion by dint of being members if our society just as we are.<br />As far as the very last point goes, I suspect that you're being fatuous just because you can.. Despite the fact that Brady and Sutcliffe are actually patients and not prisoners are you really suggesting that they could be released into society and pose no risk? <br />Inner vision Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-64391074375965893462013-01-29T21:34:38.594+00:002013-01-29T21:34:38.594+00:00The simple answer to your first question is that i...The simple answer to your first question is that if you lock up someone who causes harm to others you reduce the risk that he or she may do so again whilst locked up .. I know that you will immediately suggest that they may continue to inflict harm whilst in custody onto other prisoners or staff but that risk can be mitigated far more effectively in a controlled environment than it could if that person had not been removed from society .. <br />Inner vision Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3184990032979540229.post-3222061745675091502013-01-29T21:12:26.971+00:002013-01-29T21:12:26.971+00:00By the way, if anyone wants an excuse to punch the...By the way, if anyone wants an excuse to punch their computer screen, then follow the link below and watch a bunch of irritating, immature, smug, self-satisfied, neo-Blairite half-wits explain their job warehousing society's rejects:-<br /><br />http://www.justice.gov.uk/jobs/prisons/on-offer/graduate-programme/prison-environment/prison-leader-profiles<br /><br />My favourite is the idiotic woman who keeps shifting her feet and spouting inanities like an arts and crafts student at a pot party. Tom Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03941520164254766362noreply@blogger.com